If there is one thing I hate it is a n00b that waltzes in and posts a string of poems that he/she it thinks are worth the time of the reviewers, without a thought of why a reviewer, me, for the sake of argument, should spend fifteen minutes constructing a well-thought-out review for a poem that took the author a fraction of that time (at best) to write in the first place.

I think that a user should have reviewed--AT A BARE MINIMUM--ten (10) other poems before he has the privilege to post his own. I think that a discrimination must be made between a review (something that I would post as a response to a poem), a response (a one liner with a single suggestion and a reaction), and worthless crap (great write! loved it!).

Considering the review to crap ratio, disabling a member's ability to create threads until a member has reached, say, 50 posts should definitely do the trick.

It would cut down on one-time posters, it would--might--cut down on crap, because each person would get a handle on their poetry before submitting it, and it would definitely put my useful reviewing to better use.

~OW

EDIT: Cases in point #s one and two: a n00b that has no clue that not a single reviewer in hell is going to look at six thousand poems and respond.

EDIT: Cases in point #s three and four can be found here. I only took the time to review one of them. I'm a bit too generous to n00bs.

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i can understand where your anger and frustration are coming from. but i refuse to review other people's work before i can post my own. that is why i originally came to this site. i am still learning my own work and therefore i dont feel i should be an influence on other's to a certain point.

but -- anyone, not just noobs, but anyone that floods an assload of poems should have them all deleted. whenever i see the same name after ten poems in a row i usually just ignore them or i tell them to knock it off.

but this is my take on this. i used to post on a sight where you had to review 5 poems for every 1 you posted --i believe this leads to resentment and a lot of bullshit like you mentioned (great write, keep writing).


and by the way --- i absolutely love your sig! now there are two people with my quotes in their sigs!

in the first place there are 1000 poems here that have never had anyone comment on them. and it isn't just the administrations job to comment on them. it's everyone's job here at drytear. but that isn't happening is it?. Now I got into trouble for raising that very fact and got banned at this site for doing that. yes I was once part of the administration here. you can't blame others for not commenting when you two havn't been doing that on that fact. yes legion you comment. but the biggest part of your commentary hasn't been in the poetry section. and oscar I don't see any commentary by you at all.

What's the point of uploading your shit when people (read: me) will just see that you're a n00b and go on to something else? You need to have demonstrated your use to society before you can reap its benefits. Capitalist. Not Socialist, Capitalist.

I'm a noob eh... ?
if you'll look at my authorpage I think you'll see that I've been a member of this site since 2002. ask any mod here and they'll tell you I was once part of the administration here. and the point I'm saying that you are complaining about something that you as a member here have not been doing. look at the number of posts that I've made. then look at the number of posts that you've made... even look at your number and mine... doesn't that very fact tell you something?

sidewinder, Oscar has been reviewing people's works.

More than that- it's not about post count, it's about post quality. If it were about post count, I'd probably have to learn how to Loom via forums.

well maybe i didn't look far enough. On that note i apologize.
but there has been enough commentary by the members here compaired to the number of poems posted. and it's not just the administrations job to do it

Razor when I comment on other people work . I try to give an interesting review rather than just putting someone's work down. which I have seen here at this site. and I still think members should be doing more here at this site

Which is what Oscar is proposing as well. You two are saying the same things, just in two different ways.

You propose that members do more, Oscar proposes trying to encourage newer members to do more, thus assuring more actvity that encourages more activity from everyone.

yes...but I'm not attacking people and putting them down. there are ways of doing things without having to resort to insulting people. that only drives members away...therefore proving counterproductive

So he's not the most diplomatic of souls. Neither are you or I on most occassions.

generally when I'm not...it's because of someone that either doesn't care for something I say or doesn't care for the reply that I've made.
most of the arguements that I've made here has dealt with politics or sports or claim that i'm writing prose...when instead I'm writing freeverse poetry.

he's a hell of a lot more diplomatic than i am .......


btw ---i spelled "site" wrong.


and i rarely critique a poem --- then again i believe i have only posted like 5 in the last year -i have reviewed more than that. and i am brutally honest when i critique -and i dont give a fuck if its considered "interesting."

plus--im the person thats easiest to hate on this site ---when i piss people off they really dont want me critiquing their poetry. i believe sidewinder complained about me critiquing his poetry cause he was pissed off at my comments in another forum --this was a couple of years ago though. water under the bridge.

but i still disagree with this premise. to a point.

if you want people to get more involved...you have to use a little sugar instead of pouring salt on their wounds. people are insecure about their writing alot of time. especially when they just beginning to find their muse

if you want people to get more involved...you have to use a little sugar instead of pouring salt on their wounds. people are insecure about their writing alot of time. especially when they such beginning to find their muse

actually a valid point. and since i cannot be the one to use sugar i will back out of this discussion now lol.



i see both, now all three sides of it, all have valid points -i just happen to agree with mine most lol


legion the salt thrower.

To throw my two cents in. . .
I think some newcomers have no clue how sites work and in their excitement of joining, just post away without reading guidelines, etc. However, keep in mind that any site is pretty much the same as having endless channels on a television set. If the show annoys you - don't watch it. If you think someone is posting way too much, you can kindly let them know (and I'm sure a moderator will), and remind them of the basic guidelines, or just ignore their work. You don't have to read and comment on it.

That being said, while it's good to comment on people's work, no one is expected to provide commentary on everyone's. Some people have a basic style or content that you have absolutely NO interest in and couldn't find a decent thing to say, positive or critically, if your life depended on it.

As far as critiquing work, what always surprises me is that many of the members here think that everyone is looking for critical feedback. There are many sites out there, as most of you well know, that provide much more in the way of critical review. I think the attraction of this site is in that it's for people who like to write, but don't necessarily have an interest in pursuing it for publication, or to even better themselves in terms of grammar, style, etc. They write to express how they feel or think, and have an interest in sharing it.

By the same token, those of you who do like to seriously critique work can be brutal in your assessment of the piece, but often take it to a personal level. This would not be tolerated on some of the sites that are for advanced serious writers. It's the work that is critiqued; not someone's political beliefs, personal background, etc. So it can be played both ways. If you want members to appreciate a true critique of their efforts, then stick to the work, not the personality behind it.

On a personal level, I don't mind critique of anything I write. I have written professionally for many years, but in a totally different format than this. I learned early on that you can't have an ego. Poetry, prose, etc. is something I've always written but have not aspired to anything more than an expression of what I'm thinking or feeling until recently. I have been involved with several sites, and find something of interest and a bit of education from each. When someone offers critique, advice or thoughts to ponder on something I've written and it's done with some knowledge and insight, I value, appreciate and respect it.

I think it's easy to find writers on this site and countless others that do not have the background at this point in their lives to know more than they do about the writing they offer. The same can be said for those who read the work posted here. While it may be easy to poke fun at those who leave a simple 'I love it' as their commentary, if that is the feeling a piece invokes in them, it is not my place to be critical of their response.

As a member of any given community, I prefer to look for ways to build it rather than tear it down. It's equally as easy to do both. It just depends on what your real intent is.

Professional writer, eh?


Different from, not different than.

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Thanks for the heads up, OW. You'll never count me in as one of the folks who would score high on the correct usage test.

Pamme

as far as critique of my work... I'm not looking for that. I'm just looking for feedback.
I've been writing freeverse since I was 18 yrs old. some understand what i've written.. some don't.
and that's ok.
if I wanted a clinic on how to write ...i'd find one.
i enjoy writing yes.
but at the same time everyone wants some measure of replies on what they've written to be able to go from there.
otherwise they would have never posted it... they'd be keeping it in a closet somewhere and forget about it.

Thank you, SW, I think that was support.

And btw, Pamme, did you get my message?

Here's the way I see it. Yes, some newbies can get on our nerves, but thats because they don't quite fully understand the way things work around here. Personally, I'd rather see a newbie posting and upsetting people and trying to learn from it than see one register and never feel comfortable posting a single thought.

Secondly, OW, that is a great qoute by legion. (And no, I'm not getting hot under the collar when I say this) But not everyone that was born and raised in the south is like that. I happen to have been born and raised in the south, have an education, a wonderful job, a three bedroom house, and no children. Plus I'm only 21...

Third, Contrary to popular beliefs, legion, you are not the most hated member on this site in everyone's eyes. You have calmed down a lot in the past few months and I'm proud of you.

And fourth (last but not least) love me because I'm beautiful!!!

It's not that the n00bs would be scared per se, they simply wouldn't be able to post their own work until they've made the required number of other posts. It's really a great idea, from all points of view.

not the most hated ? what ? what the fuck am i doing all this work for ?


dammit, you set your mind to something, do the legwork, toil for hours and hours and people still fucking like you.



what do i gotta do ? kill someone ?

Depending on who you kill, your popularity might increase.

*chuckles*

Nice one, Kat.

...

Wait. Me?

Who says that anyone expects a review of their poem? If you choose to review a poem that is down to your choosing. If you dont then that is your choice also. I dont see anyone placing any expectations on people around here.

That said if someone new joins and floods the boards without making replys to other peoples work then I would find that inconsiderate of them. People are asked to review other peoples work but if they choose to ignore this request then so be it. It is just as easy to ignore their work in return and generally I have found over the years that such people dont stay around for long as they soon run out of poetry to post that has not already been ignored.

I have argued several times that it would be nice to see everyone who posts making constructive replies to other peoples poetry but this is not the reality and ive grown accustomed to it. People are generally bad at reviewing poetry mainly because they dont understand how to. Also if they find people who do know how to they also tend to avoid making in depth criticism of those peoples poetry for fear of making themselves look stupid.

Ive seen oscar replie to many peoples work and the replies are thought out, observant, and critical. This is good quality reviewing and has always been needed around this site and many many others. Unfortunately it doesnt work like that and putting a proverbial gun to peoples head will never make them change, it will only force them to run away.

I dont see it as a problem with the site but a problem with people expectations. I have spent a lot of time through the years making long and in depth replies to many peoples work with very little in return for it and yet occasionally I have found those people who repay me in kind. To those people I am greatful. The rest of the time I'm kicking myself for being stupid enough to reply to a bad poet in the first place.

If you are to hold people to your own standards then you should expect them to fail and fall short because they dont neccesarily know what you expect of them to begin with.

After reading and reviewing some bad poets works im actually glad they dont come and review my work by return, as my opinion of their work and knowledge would not neccesarily be a good one.

Then again there are few absolutes in the world.

I have to find myself agreeing with My Lord. It is not a rule that you muct reply to others poetry, it is more of a suggestion. If you ignore it, then your own work is usually ignored... The more replys you make the more replys you get to your own work.

Perhaps this would just make the ignoring of someone who doesn't want to extend the courtesy to review's work all that much more direct, easy, and clean.

And perhaps it would cause hard feelings because you are forcing someone to reply to something that they have no interest in.

If they want to post more than one poem at a time they should atleast spread them out on different categories... thats wut i think...but who cares wut i think right? Lol

Don't make me laugh. The shitload of crap on this forum is broad enough that ANYBODY could find something that they find mildly interesting. That's not to say that you need to be interested in the subject matter to review the piece, either. Look at my review of shorty's poem. Yes, it's crap. Yes, I had no interest in the subject matter. But I reviewed it, and it was simplistic to review it. Hard feelings would only be felt by someone unwilling or unable to review poetry, and frankly, DryTear does not need those people.

and Oscar there's something you're not understanding.
being a hardass to people will not endure people to you.
I've posted here and several other sites and forums in my time on the net.
I've also been a member of this administration and part of other administrations and run a poetry site before.
and as I said you have to take people in consideration...
without doing that you're spinning your wheels trying force people to your point of view.
yes I've been to poetry sites where others do exactly what your doing.
and for the most part I ignore those type of people.
and yes I've also been to those sites where it was required to return all replies.
Again those sites tended to have small membership.
Like I said before... to keep people around you have to throw a little sugar rather than pouring salt into a wound.
Telling people that their hard earned work is crap just doesn't cut it.
Now being supportive does work.
now I'm not saying lying to people.
I'm saying helping people that are beginning writers or people that want feedback.
Not everyone wants to be a professional writers...
some write just because they enjoy it and want to know what others think of that same writing.

And SW, there is something that you are very slow to get, in fact, several somethings, spelling among them. "Hard earned work"? Wtf? Do you mean "work on which they worked hard"? In any case, I am not asking people to tell others their work is crap. My personal signature states:



But I promote reviews in the abstract. If they comment on things the author did particularly well, or give criticism couched firmly in compliments, as long as they give well-thought out text, then fine. I simply want reactions that have a thesis and support, not merely a thesis.

well oscar there's something you and I don't agree on.
there's a billion places on the net where people can get told that their work isn't worth a fuck.
and you Oscar are like a drone quiping what's been told to them since highschool or before.
so do yourself a favor ... get a freaking clue. because you have not found a fan here.

im on both sides of the fence on this .


sidewinder says that telling people their hard earned work is crap doesnt cut it . i have to disagree. i think it is far, far worse to tell someone that something they wrote is wonderful when it's really a big steaming turd is wrong. if they are poets, then they know true suffering and should be able to take criticism if they post their work (or turd if it applies) on this site.

and oscar can be a hardass --- but that endures me to him. cause i am king of the hardasses! but thats just me.

i can see both sides and find fault and value in both arguments -- but in the end i still believe that self-esteem can only truly be given by the person themself. i think that a false sense of self-esteem is dangerous and just plain cruel. i married a woman with three kids, the middle child is always doted on and whenever they play him in anything, be it cards or board games or video games-they let him win. i hate this! fucking hate it! i told him and tell him to this day that whenever i play against him in anything i am going to knock his dick in the dirt.if he wants to beat me at cards, or pool, or any other game he will have to earn it. and they day he beats me he will know that HE beat me and HE earned it. what that has to do with this discussion i really dont know cause as i am typing this i pretty much forgot where i was going with it. getting old sucks! i am 37 and have the short-term memory of a fucking fruit fly.

make mine a cheeseburger!

"Hard feelings would only be felt by someone unwilling or unable to review poetry, and frankly, DryTear does not need those people."


Sad to say this, but I'm one of those people. I almost never find something that interests me, and I am unable to review anything because I feel that what was written is personal to whomever wrote it and unless they specifically ask for it to be reviewed, then it doesn't need to be drug into the ground.

And before you say anything about it, yes, I know that I am a moderator of a poetry forum.

legion...
you and I don't agree on this point.
how many beginning poets want to simply be given the chance to actually write?
bashing someone in the face doesn't do them any good.
how many times have you seen teachers instead of encouraging their students to write
play the ol drone. grammar, structure and rhyme
and in doing that drive those same students away?

SW, stop misunderstanding me. I am not saying bashing is the only way to go. Read my words again:


I am not arguing for reviews to be either positive or negative. That is naturally up to the reviewer in question. I personally am negative, certainly, but that is beside the point. I advocate well-thought out reviews, bearing a thesis and support, of any opinion.

~OW

oscar....
i am reading your words.
but what I'm saying tends to be contrary to your position.
see I've seen crushing reviews where they only tear one down.
yet i havn't seen many reviewers try to LOOK in the eyes of the writer
and work from that point of view.

it's easy to find fault when you're looking for it.
sometimes it isn't easy to try to see what the writer is saying...
then if it needs improvement ... show that same person where they can improve

So you are firmly against reviews that tear down the writer for the sake of tearing down the writer. Fine. That still doesn't account for your being against a requirement that n00bs review before they post their own work. We can define "review" any way we want, but my definition is only that it gives a well-thought out and supported opinion. That aforementioned opinion can be anything.

When I personally review, I feel that holding back criticism that might help the author is never a good idea, and also that praising the author when six others have already done so is a waste of time. But that's just me.

well considering you're noob yourself. and the policy of this place letting people enjoy what they are doing instead of placing hard and fast rules here...your point is mute. this place does not have that many active members within it as is. most that come here tend to use the other forums instead of the poetry section. yes there are poets here. but look at the number of comments being made. and at that its mostly from the administration that's making them. by the way this has been asked for before and Adam won't allow that to happen. so again your point is mute.

Mute or moot?

i stand corrected. One thing I've learned on the various poetry sites that I've been on. when the owner want things a certain way ...that's the way they will be. irreguardless of how much the members may scream and hollar.

LOL "irregardless". Not technically standard.

The "problems and suggestions" board is the only way to suggest improvements and changes, and I am doing just that. When Adam feels he has time to grace this board with his presence, then we will see what happens.

It is not a question of Adam having time to grace us with his presence or not, it is more of a matter of him getting certain things in order and having access to a computer.

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i understand wanting to come to the defence of a fellow redneck -but if said redneck put herself in the position she is in then it is her fault and all critique and commentary to that effect is warranted.
read before you speak.

Hehe... Ya'll know I have absolutely nothing against a good debate. In fact I love them. So lets all make an agreement here and now: Ya'll speak your minds, and I'll speak mine.


Oh and legion? You are my favorite person to argue with on this site, its just such a shame that I agree with you on most subjects.

This has been an interesting read. I understand the interest in restricting new members from posting before meeting certain requirements. At the same time we have a large volume of posts. I think people get the idea of "give and get" with posting, reading, and commenting. I see that many comment far more frequently than they post their own works, myself included. I prefer to see people jump in the fray. Restricting creative posts forces people to be engaged in a different way, and I'd rather see some degree of flexibility than a regimented structure which may scare off the more delicate flowers. The process is self-weeding as it stands.

I'm amused by the grammar and spelling errors - I make them myself - and the replies to them. If anything could distract us from the main point of the topic, it would be those kinds of errors. We've been remarkably on topic despite them (and the retorts they generate).